"The Most Famous Fastest Hedgehog Alive In The World"

[David The Lurker]

And this, to me, is where you and I probably disagree most fundamentally. You feel the spirit of Sonic was defined by his creators and the story elements they conceived for the game. I, however, do not believe authorial intent survives the creative process, and so what a story's "spirit" truly is belongs entirely to each individual who interprets it. I find this particularly true in Sonic's case because of how little information is actually in the games themselves; even the American manuals provided little more than a rudimentary background, character names, and item descriptions. Beyond that, the events within the game are almost entirely without context, and I have to imagine that's more or less true for the Japanese version as well, though admittedly I don't have a copy to see for myself. Either way, though, taken entirely by themselves, the original "Sonic" games are pretty open to all manner of varying interpreations well beyond what Oshima and co. may have intended; you need only look at how differently you, Elisto, and I all see them to realize that.

...I am infinitely confused by this statement. What do you mean you don't believe in "authorial intent surviving the creative process?" When someone sits down to make something, be it an individual writing a book or a collaborative effort that ends up on the silver screen, the people behind it have some sort of intent to go along with it. They're not just randomly placing together a bunch of words for the heck of it. It is possible for people to not "get it" and have their own interpretation of a work, but there are plenty of people who are quite interested in what the author actually attempted to convey with their artistic endevours. Even the original Sonic Team, who at the end of the day were making a video game to help the company they worked for make money, cared about what they were doing. They didn't just want to make a product, they wanted to make a good product. A coherent product. Something they would be proud to put their names on. Yes, the American manual didn't have a whole lot inside of it. Heck, there is not one American manual which references the Kintobor story, even though that was the "official" Sonic origin in the west. But for the Japanese side of things? I linked to the manual in my last post, along with a few internal documents. Yes, not all of that was available to the public when the first game came out. But the difference between enjoying a work privately and adapting a work with the full backing of the parent company is that you should have at least an understanding (and appreciation) of the source material you're working with. Otherwise, you're going to create a product that either has very little to do with the source, or completely misses the point.

I just want to point out, right there on the first page, we see a bunch of SWATBot-esque robots who would not appear in the original games in any form until "Sonic Heroes", while Sonic's concert is attended by a bunch of cat-girls, a specific type of anthro who have yet to appear in any of the games. The manga, in other words, takes liberties of its own with the source material, apparently.

Yes, there are elements that aren't actually found in the games. However, most of that comic borrows heavily from the games and the original conceptual material. The spirit of the first game is a heavy presence in the story, even if the creator uses slight elements like the robots and the catgirls that aren't in the game. I won't say that, when adapting a video game to any other medium, you can't change things. What matters most is that you capture the core elements and let them shine through, with any other additions you make being almost superfluous. The cat-girls are really nothing more than eye candy, and the SWAT robots are there to help the story get going. The enemies don't become an issue until they turn in the Sonic 1 enemies with the entire animal dynamic.

I must admit, I find myself confused; you seem to be treating these lighter elements as a bad thing, and yet I thought your whole problem with the show was its overt darkness? I'm not trying to be rude or confrontational, either, I'm genuinely trying to understand.

I'm sorry if I've confused you, but I never intended to make it sound like I have a problem with the lighter elements. What I was saying is that, yes, I do have issues with the dark tone the series portrays, but that I have an even bigger issue with the perception of how dark the series is in comparison to how dark the show actually was in practice. The lighter elements, the comic relief, those are elements that I am glad exist in the show. There are certain fans which do nothing but focus on the idea that Robotnik was a tyrant, Sally was basically an orphan, everyone they knew was robotocized, and that Mobius was a dark, dreary place that no one would ever want to live in. When in fact, there was a bit more to the series. There was levity. There were times when the show did feel like it could be an actual show about Sonic the Hedgehog. But the foreboding tone (and the fans attempt to increase that darkness, especially in fan-produced works) is what everyone latches on to, and is the legacy of the series. Even though that was never the intent of the games. Dr. Eggman in Japan was a force that could be reckoned with, but he was still a goofy villain. Even in his brief appearances in the first game, the character displayed an incredible amount of potential that was wasted when it came time to create the character of Dr. Robotnik for the Saturday morning series.

No, but you do find all sorts of grim settings of different kinds as well. Look at Marble Hill Zone; crumbling ruins on the top portion, lava-flowing death traps below. Likewise Labyrinth Zone is an ancient city filled with automated spears and fireball-spitting statues. Springyard Zone and Starlight Zone are obviously cities of some kind, yet the only things in them are weapons and evil robots. No, it's not all "Mechanical Pollution Type Place" all the time, but it isn't all "Green Hill" forestry either.

When it comes to Marble and Labyrinth Zone, those places aren't really in either category. Yes, there are traps. But there are death traps in Green Hill Zone. Those spikes aren't exactly friendly. But those two zones are ruin areas, and ruins in real life aren't exactly friendly places to be. They're creepy because they are abandoned areas that once held life but no longer. The shadow of what it once was is there, but nothing else. Spring Yard and Star Light are cities of some kind, yes. And there are traps and robots, too. But these cities weren't built by Eggman. If they were, they would look more like his actual fortresses, or even "Eggmanland." These are pre-established settings with people living there, that also happen to now have Eggman's creations creating a ruckus because Sonic the Hedgehog is running through. There is a diversity found within, and that continues with the rest of the classic games.

Well yes, the Great Forest is the exception moreso than the rule, but again, it isn't all one or the other; there are any numbers of places seen throughout SatAM that fall between "natural and unspoiled" and "corrupt and polluted", and taken together it is THOSE places which comprise the true majority of SatAM's world.

This may be true. It's been a little while since I've watched the entirety of the series. It's just that so much of the show is dedicated to the Knothole/Robotropolis relationship that you don't get a sense of what is going on outside. If there is life on Mobius that is independent of the war between Robotnik and the remaining Freedom Fighters.

I know, and appreciate that quite a bit in fact.

That's good. Also, I am a bit tired as I write this, so if I start not making sense or something, keep that in mind.

I get what you're saying, (and I agree thank goodness they didn't stick with the original Sonic Bible).

But what I'm trying to say is, if so much Sonic was developed by SoA so early on and is what became popular, why is SoJ considered the default that "should" have been followed? Because they created the character or the first game? It's not like we're talking about 2 different companies, one which had to get permission from the other to do anything. We're talking about two branches of the same company. They may not have been any good at coordinating themselves, but why is one branch's work more "legitimate" than the other's?

You say to look at the essence of what Sonic was, and I'm not sure how the western-developed plots don't also contain that. Sonic runs fast, lives in a brightly colored unrealistic world, fights robots, rescues animals from Robotnik. I think there's definitely a difference between what stood out as defining Sonic for different people (For example, I always saw the robots as adding a much darker tone to the games than I think other kids did, so to me SatAM's darkness wasn't out of place in Sonic, even if it looks it to others).

As for the music issue in Sonic Spinball, I'm not sure I understand your point. If Sega was only licensed to use it for certain games, that would have nothing to do with a difference between what one branch or the other could do, just potentially mean that the SoJ branch didn't share legal info the rest of the company, not necessarily that they were the only ones who could manage that.

I think the reason the Japanese work is considered more legitimate than the work SOA did is because they were the ones who actually made the game. Sonic Team were the people responsible for conceiving the characters, developing the game, and building the world around Sonic. SEGA of America called in a man who answered phones, pointed at a picture of Eggman, and asked him what he should be called. The entire process that went about creating the Kintobor storyline was a corporate one, with people who weren't involved in the game-making trying to think of the best way to sell the game, even if it didn't make sense. The work Sonic Team did, though, was an organic process that had a lot of thought put into it.

The Spinball example was to show not just a miscommunication, but a complete disregard for one side to another. If SEGA of Japan didn't think it necessary to tell SEGA of America that they couldn't use the already-established theme song of Sonic any longer because they would have to pay for it and they didn't want to anymore, that's not an oversight. That should be something put into a memo and sent to every single person involved in the making of a game featuring Sonic the Hedgehog. Spinball probably wasn't looked upon as a high priority game, but it was the Sonic game for the Genesis in 1993. I never said that only SEGA of Japan could be responsible in legal matters, but that the two sides just couldn't get along. Some of that was resentment - that SOA was doing better than SOJ. That could be what led Sonic to his redesign in Sonic Adventure, where his design changed from that based on Felix the Cat and Micky Mouse to something that would appeal to the current Japanese youth. No longer is he that timeless character that can exist in any era, but he now looks like a character that was made to appeal to Japanese kids of a certain age, and is entirely disposable. If there is one thing Sonic was never meant to be, it was disposable.

[Gojira007]

...I am infinitely confused by this statement. What do you mean you don't believe in "authorial intent surviving the creative process?" When someone sits down to make something, be it an individual writing a book or a collaborative effort that ends up on the silver screen, the people behind it have some sort of intent to go along with it. They're not just randomly placing together a bunch of words for the heck of it. It is possible for people to not "get it" and have their own interpretation of a work, but there are plenty of people who are quite interested in what the author actually attempted to convey with their artistic endevours.

And that's a legitimate reaction to a work. But equally legitimate is seeing things other than what the original creator(s) may have intended, because there are pretty much always things in a work the creator(s) may not have intended to be there, or else things that can be taken by the audience in a way different than the creators(s) intended. In other words, to me, the thing that matters most is not necessarily what the creators had in mind when working on a piece of art, but rather the art itself. What I see on the screen when watching a movie, or in a book when I read it, or yes, what I experience in a game when playing it; THAT is all that matters to me when interpreting a work, because even if the author is standing right next to me saying "see, THAT is supposed to be about THIS", I'm not always going to see it that way; not because I'm stupid or don't "get it" but because I am NOT the author and see the world differently than they do, even if it's just a little bit differently. Which isn't to say I despise the creators or their intentions, either, but for me that intent is a seperate thing from the work itself rather than a part of how I personally react and respond to it.

But the difference between enjoying a work privately and adapting a work with the full backing of the parent company is that you should have at least an understanding (and appreciation) of the source material you're working with.

Only I think Hurst and co. did have an understanding of the source material; it's just a different understanding than you have or that the original Sonic Team may have intended. Remove authorial intent from the equation, after all, and you're left with a super-fast blue hedgehog fighting against robots made from innocent creatures created by a mad scientist with dreams of world conquest. SatAM uses that premise as its starting point, then decides to take it in a different direction than the games did, and as far as I'm concerned, that's a perfectly legitimate way of doing adaptation.

I'm sorry if I've confused you, but I never intended to make it sound like I have a problem with the lighter elements. What I was saying is that, yes, I do have issues with the dark tone the series portrays, but that I have an even bigger issue with the perception of how dark the series is in comparison to how dark the show actually was in practice.

Got it. ^_^ Thanks for clarifying for me.

The lighter elements, the comic relief, those are elements that I am glad exist in the show. There are certain fans which do nothing but focus on the idea that Robotnik was a tyrant, Sally was basically an orphan, everyone they knew was robotocized, and that Mobius was a dark, dreary place that no one would ever want to live in.

Except that the people who focus on that stuff do so because it's what they found most compelling about the series; even in its lighter moments, those elements do a lot to form the emotional core of the series' main story, so it isn't as if they're not important. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate both halves of the SatAM world, the light and the dark, in fairly equal measure, but I do understand why others feel differently.

These are pre-established settings with people living there, that also happen to now have Eggman's creations creating a ruckus because Sonic the Hedgehog is running through.

Only how do we actually know that? Nothing in the game gives us any real reason to believe that one way or the other; we don't see any people, or any hint that people are there or ever have been. All we get is a city, and as easy as it is to assume Eggman had nothing to with its creation since it is dissimilar to what we see of his fortress in Scrap Brain Zone, it is equally easy to assume its difference in appearance is due to a difference of function. Going only off the game itself, either assumption is entirely legitimate.

This may be true. It's been a little while since I've watched the entirety of the series. It's just that so much of the show is dedicated to the Knothole/Robotropolis relationship that you don't get a sense of what is going on outside. If there is life on Mobius that is independent of the war between Robotnik and the remaining Freedom Fighters.

Except we do. Repeatedly. The Floating Island in "Blast to the Past" had nothing to do with the War until Sonic and Sally decided the Time Stones which resided there could be used to prevent Robotnik from ever taking power, the Hyena Bikers from "Fed Up With Antoine" seem to have no alliance with anyone, the Terrapods in "Sonic Past Cool" are simply going through their own natural herding process before the Freedom Fighters and Robotnik intervene, Lazaar and his Guardian from "Super Sonic" resided in the place Robotropolis was built well before Robotnik was even born, etc. etc. etc. The conflict between Knothole and Robotropolis is indeed the central relationship in the show's story, which affects what we the viewers get to see of the world, and there is indeed a lot of evidence to show it's a BIG part of what that world is like, but it's not the ONLY part.

That's good. Also, I am a bit tired as I write this, so if I start not making sense or something, keep that in mind.

Don't worry; you seemed perfectly cogent to me. I only hope you'll be able to say the same for me when you read this. XD

[henryii]

I just just still don't get the concept of even defending SOJ interpretation, when everyone knows those ideas didn't ever float water in the first place.

[Elisto Dragonwings]

I think the reason the Japanese work is considered more legitimate than the work SOA did is because they were the ones who actually made the game. Sonic Team were the people responsible for conceiving the characters, developing the game, and building the world around Sonic. SEGA of America called in a man who answered phones, pointed at a picture of Eggman, and asked him what he should be called. The entire process that went about creating the Kintobor storyline was a corporate one, with people who weren't involved in the game-making trying to think of the best way to sell the game, even if it didn't make sense. The work Sonic Team did, though, was an organic process that had a lot of thought put into it.

Except Sonic Team wasn't even based in Japan when Sonic 2 came out and collaborated with STI to make it (italics mine):

...Due to most of Sonic Team's key members moving to the Western branch, Sega Technical Institute got the job to handle Sonic's Mega Drive sequels. The American developers collaborated with Sonic Team in the development of Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Most of the STI staff worked on the zone art and special stages, while most of Sonic Team worked on the level designs and the programming. However, due to most of the Sonic Team staff lacking the ability to speak English, there was trouble with language barriers. The STI staff were new to the game industry and weren't used to the strict Japanese game development philosophy. Sonic Team members worked very late nights and sometimes slept under their desks in order to perfectly achieve Yuji Naka's guidelines. After the completion of Sonic 2, Yuji Naka made the final decision to only allow the Japanese members in the core development team to work on Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

So no, it wasn't like the western side of things just renamed a few thing and didn't put any effort into it.
I'd say the zone art does s hugely important to the tone of the game.

I also don't understand why you're using the Kintobor storyline from the first bible as an example since it was scrapped for SatAM and Archie anyway.

[David The Lurker]

So no, it wasn't like the western side of things just renamed a few thing and didn't put any effort into it.
I'd say the zone art does s hugely important to the tone of the game.

I also don't understand why you're using the Kintobor storyline from the first bible as an example since it was scrapped for SatAM and Archie anyway.

For the most part, when I've been talking about the primordial essence of Sonic the Hedgehog, I've been talking about the first game. When the entire team was based in Japan. It is true that there were some American members of the team during Sonic the Hedgehog 2, but that is not related to when they were creating Sonic the Hedgehog, the world of the first game, the characters, the storyline, or any of it. And yes, they came up with some of the zone art. But Brenda Ross (one of those zone artists) has gone on record saying that most of what she worked on was scrapped, like the Hidden Palace Zone, the Wood Zone, and Dust Hill Zone. The American art that was included? Like I mentioned previously, most of it was later modified by Yasuhara so that if would flow in with the art the Japanese side had created. It is a shame that the two sides couldn't work as well together, but if they had Sonic the Hedgehog 3 could have been something altogether different.

Also, the reason I keep on bringing up the Kintobor storyline is because, for years, it was considered the "official" storyline of Sonic the Hedgehog by SEGA of America. Yes, there was no sign of Kintobor in either tv show, and the name was only used in passing in the Archie comic (just as Robotnik's original family name he dropped when he defected to Mobotropolis) but Kintobor was first, and continued on. He was the basis of the original comic released in America back in 1991, and even as late as 1996 it was being used by SOA. Look at this website that was released to help promote Sonic 3D Blast. What's the origin about? That's right. Dr. Ovi Kintobor and the R.O.C.C. And least we forget about the Fleetway series that continued having new material published until the year 2000. That exclusively used the Kintobor backstory.

So yeah...even when the main line of Sonic games were being developed in America, there were still done mainly by Japanese parties, and they were the ones in charge of the tone of the games and the storylines contained within (that were later "localized" by others who were not involved in the creation of the game, even if they were in the same country).

And that's a legitimate reaction to a work. But equally legitimate is seeing things other than what the original creator(s) may have intended, because there are pretty much always things in a work the creator(s) may not have intended to be there, or else things that can be taken by the audience in a way different than the creators(s) intended. In other words, to me, the thing that matters most is not necessarily what the creators had in mind when working on a piece of art, but rather the art itself. What I see on the screen when watching a movie, or in a book when I read it, or yes, what I experience in a game when playing it; THAT is all that matters to me when interpreting a work, because even if the author is standing right next to me saying "see, THAT is supposed to be about THIS", I'm not always going to see it that way; not because I'm stupid or don't "get it" but because I am NOT the author and see the world differently than they do, even if it's just a little bit differently. Which isn't to say I despise the creators or their intentions, either, but for me that intent is a seperate thing from the work itself rather than a part of how I personally react and respond to it.

I am not going to deny that there is the possibility to derive a meaning separate from what the author originally intended. Sometimes, authors can create works that have significant meanings far beyond what they originally thought they were doing, either subconsciously or over time. Political works that were subversive in other times and other cultures...the author would never have admitted to what their original intent was, but instead would hope the reader would be able to figure it out on their own. But to just outright ignore what the author was intending? Especially if they come outright and say that's what they're doing? That's when it starts bothering me. If you are to analyze a work and you know background information like that, you have to use that in some capacity when you come to a conclusion. If you ignore it, you are missing out on something that would be valuable to your understanding of that work. That's why I enjoy watching behind the scenes footage or reading into drafts of earlier works, to gain a deeper understanding of a finished work.

Only I think Hurst and co. did have an understanding of the source material; it's just a different understanding than you have or that the original Sonic Team may have intended. Remove authorial intent from the equation, after all, and you're left with a super-fast blue hedgehog fighting against robots made from innocent creatures created by a mad scientist with dreams of world conquest. SatAM uses that premise as its starting point, then decides to take it in a different direction than the games did, and as far as I'm concerned, that's a perfectly legitimate way of doing adaptation.

Ben Hurst was aware that, yes, the show had to be about a blue hedgehog named Sonic who fought someone named Dr. Robotnik and there had to be robots inside of it. But one look at the games reveals a different world than the one he helped create in the series. When Ben Hurst recounted his time on the series, he admitted time and again that he never once played any Sonic the Hedgehog game. If you're one of the main writers for a show that, if you want to be crude about it, is nothing more than a half-hour commercial for a video game, it might be beneficial if you actually play through what you're writing about. And if you can't beat it yourself? Then have someone else finish it for you. There is a bit of confusion as to how much Ben actually knew about the storyline of Sonic in the games, since at one point he went on record to say:

Well, bearing in mind that we were given no history of the Sonic characters when we came on board, we created a "White Paper" that created a history for the characters. This doesn't mean that what we created is the definitive backstory.

But later on, Ben stated:

[17:06] @Sonic_Writer: There was a question about continuity from Sega. They did have a continuity, but it was not clearly articulated and pardon the expression, it didn't "hang together."

[17:56] @Sonic_Writer: I also created the background continuity which was dramatically different from Sega's - and Len Janson defended our continuity against them.
[17:56] @Sonic_Writer: Because he felt is was better.

[17:43] @Sonic_Writer: I avoid all other incarnations of Sonic like the plague.

Just so you know, yes, I'm aware that the last line in context is meant more tongue-in-cheek, and that he didn't think other versions of Sonic were like the plague. But the point is more that he didn't care to even really get into what SEGA had in mind for what they thought of Sonic. Playing the game for 30 seconds, you run into a robot and hit it, which has a Flicky jump out and run away. In the show? Sonic would never think to attack the robotocized Mobians, instead going after the soulless SWATbots that have nothing inside of them. This one simple idea is so far removed, and it seems less like Ben Hurst "understanding it differently" and more him wanting to write about something else.

Except that the people who focus on that stuff do so because it's what they found most compelling about the series; even in its lighter moments, those elements do a lot to form the emotional core of the series' main story, so it isn't as if they're not important. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate both halves of the SatAM world, the light and the dark, in fairly equal measure, but I do understand why others feel differently.

You're right about how it is those dark elements that made the series compelling to a lot of people. When I was a kid, I used to go on about how it was "the better cartoon" because I felt like it made me seem older. Because it was darker and written differently than the syndicated series. Now? I think the syndicated series is slightly closer to what Sonic was meant to be, even if it is completely insane. But that insanity is part of the charm to that particular show, just like the balance between light and dark in SatAM is part of the charm, not just one side or the other. I no longer go on about how I think one show is better than the other. I think they both had an idea of what they personally wanted to do, and in some places succeeded and in others failed, just like most shows of any era.

These are pre-established settings with people living there, that also happen to now have Eggman's creations creating a ruckus because Sonic the Hedgehog is running through.
Only how do we actually know that? Nothing in the game gives us any real reason to believe that one way or the other; we don't see any people, or any hint that people are there or ever have been. All we get is a city, and as easy as it is to assume Eggman had nothing to with its creation since it is dissimilar to what we see of his fortress in Scrap Brain Zone, it is equally easy to assume its difference in appearance is due to a difference of function. Going only off the game itself, either assumption is entirely legitimate.

True, you don't really know what is going on in the background. You don't know who lives there, how long they've been there, or anything else of the sort. But in most zones of the games, you never see other people wandering around, aside from the occasional animal that pops out of what you break. The only time inside a level that I can think of is when you meet Knuckles throughout Sonic 3 & Knuckles...you're aware there are quite a few people around in the cutscenes of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, and can even talk to them in the Adventure Fields of the first game. But the moment you enter a level? They vanish. You don't have anyone lounging about on Emerald Coast, or see any explores in Windy Vally. That's because they're not important to see while you're running through the level. As for Star Light Zone, Naoto Ohshima had this to say about the level...

While designing stages, I had the image in mind of something like outer space, or a starry night sky. I was thinking there should be a place where you run through a scenic night-time location. By the time we were done with these last three stages, Labyrinth, Star Light, and Scrap Brain, we had a really good understanding of the system and had become somewhat fanatical about elaborate moving platforms.

That description doesn't sound to me like another fortress Eggman built. It sounds like just some random city at night, where its scenic because the people who are there seem to be asleep. Or at least not partying it up in this part of the city.

Except we do. Repeatedly. The Floating Island in "Blast to the Past" had nothing to do with the War until Sonic and Sally decided the Time Stones which resided there could be used to prevent Robotnik from ever taking power, the Hyena Bikers from "Fed Up With Antoine" seem to have no alliance with anyone, the Terrapods in "Sonic Past Cool" are simply going through their own natural herding process before the Freedom Fighters and Robotnik intervene, Lazaar and his Guardian from "Super Sonic" resided in the place Robotropolis was built well before Robotnik was even born, etc. etc. etc. The conflict between Knothole and Robotropolis is indeed the central relationship in the show's story, which affects what we the viewers get to see of the world, and there is indeed a lot of evidence to show it's a BIG part of what that world is like, but it's not the ONLY part.

I will concede that there is more to the SatAM world than we get to see. But I am curious as to how much of that world is actually out in the open, and how much has gone into hiding. Lazaar's domain is right next to Robotropolis, and seems to have been left alone because Robotnik didn't realize there was anything really important there until Sonic stumbled in. The Floating Island wasn't the easiest place to find, if I recall. They only went there because Dulcy happened to know it was real. We don't have any proof that there are Mobians that can just be out in the open, living their lives without the fear of Dr. Robotnik showing up and ruining everything.

Don't worry; you seemed perfectly cogent to me. I only hope you'll be able to say the same for me when you read this. XD

Haha, I think I've been able to. No prob!

I just just still don't get the concept of even defending SOJ interpretation, when everyone knows those ideas didn't ever float water in the first place.

...right. The reason people defend it is because of what I've gone on about, how it is the essence of Sonic the Hedgehog and what the original creators of the characters and the games laid out. Sonic was the most popular in the United States, but his best selling game was Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Which was released months before the shows or the comics, and I'm sure there were plenty of people who bought it who never watched either show. The original Japanese continuity never was given a chance in the United States - the region it was originally developed for in the first place! By the time SEGA of Japan stepped in and stopped the Kintobor storyline, the original games had long since been released. It was for Sonic Adventure, which actually was respectful of the games that game before it. And that was one of the most successful games on the console, even if the Dreamcast didn't get long to be active (which failed not because of Sonic Adventure, but because of its failures with the Sega CD, 32X, the Saturn, and the animosity they built with their userbase because of that string. And that the PS2 was the successor of the highly successful PS1. And was the cheapest DVD player in existence at the time). It wasn't until Sonic Adventure 2 where the storyline and the essence of Sonic started taking a real turn away from what had been established, and that was because the original main players weren't really involved. Yuji Naka was still working for Sonic Team, but Ohshima and Yasuhara had left. And Naka? He was more interested in making Phantasy Star Online. He wasn't all that involved with Sonic Adventure 2. That was Iizuka's baby.

And even though the Mega Drive wasn't a runaway success in Japan, we don't know how many copies of Sonic the Hedgehog (or its sequels) were sold. The Mega Drive sold 3.58 million units in Japan, while 17.7 million Super Famicons (Super Nintendos) were sold. That is...a huge margin. In America, it was a much closer margin (22.3/23.5), but in neither region did anything come close to how many Nintendo Entertainment Systems were sold. SEGA's advertising campaign in America was extremely aggressive, putting down Nintendo any chance they got, and was focused entirely on how much "cooler" they were in comparison to Nintendo. How much more "extreme" they could be. And with all of that, they could only tie with Nintendo. So I think the success of the game franchise, in the end, had nothing to do with Sonic's origins being as simple as they were in the Japanese manual, as convoluted as they were in the American comic, or as off the wall as they were in the tv shows. It really came down to how well the game was put together.

[Gojira007]

If you are to analyze a work and you know background information like that, you have to use that in some capacity when you come to a conclusion.

Says who? Look at, say, "Blade Runner". Not only is the book it's based on, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", a radically different beast in tone and plot, but director Ridley Scott has been up front for years about the fact that he intended for the film's main character, Rick Deckard, to be in fact a Replicant android, just like the ones he hunts throughout the film; the final revelation is removed, but enough hints on the matter remain that one could accept that fact as canonical to the story if they so chose. But you know what? As far as I'm concerned, in the "Blade Runner" that made its way to theaters, Deckard is human. In my opinion, the story is just so much better if Deckard is human. So while I respect Scott's idea for Deckard's character, I far prefer the interpretation I have now, even knowing what was originally intended. I suppose that may well count as using my knowledge of Scott's intention to "some capacity", but it's a minor one, and more importantly it's in a capacity wherein the creator's intent is in no way binding to my own opinion and understanding of the story.

If you ignore it, you are missing out on something that would be valuable to your understanding of that work. That's why I enjoy watching behind the scenes footage or reading into drafts of earlier works, to gain a deeper understanding of a finished work.

Oh, I love that stuff too; I eat it up, as a matter of fact. As I said, though, I don't so much ignore the behind-the-scenes stuff as much as treat it seperately from my own feelings on a work. In other words, I consume the piece of work first, then pursue the behind-the-scenes stuff (most of the time; with movies, the large amounts of behind-the-scenes stuff released before hand for promotional purposes means that if I'm excited enough about the film in question I'll check it out, but I fear I've gone on a tangent) and say to myself, say, "Oh, that's exactly how I felt!" or "Hmm...y'know, I get what they mean, but that's not how I see it", and so on and so forth.
Another example is one of my favorite films of the last decade, "WALL-E". In interviews and the "Art of" book, Andrew Stanton states that, to him, EVE is "all business", driven entirely by her directive as a robot and nothing else prior to her meeting WALL-E. Yet when I watch the film, that's not what I see; she is undeniably driven, yes, and she takes her job quite seriously, but there are so many strong hints that she is a more complex being than that, even from the moment we first meet her, that the "all business" idea of her character Stanton mentions just doesn't ring wholly true for me.

But one look at the games reveals a different world than the one he helped create in the series.

I remain a touch unconvinced that the SatAM world is all that different from the Game World, especially if we're taking the "Sonic Adventure"-and-beyond games into account as you do later on. They're not exactly the same, but I don't think they're wholly incompatible, either.

Sonic would never think to attack the robotocized Mobians, instead going after the soulless SWATbots that have nothing inside of them. This one simple idea is so far removed...

I fail to see why it's such a humongous change that the robots Sonic fights and the robots which hold his friends are two different things now; he's still bashing 'bots, his friends are still being held prisoner in robot shells. Both essential elements have been retained, it's just the manner in which they've been handled that's changed.

...you're aware there are quite a few people around in the cutscenes of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, and can even talk to them in the Adventure Fields of the first game. But the moment you enter a level? They vanish. You don't have anyone lounging about on Emerald Coast, or see any explores in Windy Vally.

We don't have those cutscenes in the original games, though. We have no reason to believe humans other than Eggman even exist in the original games, except for the Japanese canon's idea that the game is set on Earth. If we choose to retroactively apply the "Adventure" games' human presence as proof of that, meanwhile, I'd say the similarity between SatAM's world and the games' increases significantly, but that's a whole other matter.

That description doesn't sound to me like another fortress Eggman built. It sounds like just some random city at night, where its scenic because the people who are there seem to be asleep. Or at least not partying it up in this part of the city.

Well, again, what Oshima intended does not necessarily bare on what I experience when playing the game, but even setting that aside, I actually don't see anything in that statement which rules out much of anything. He's just saying he wanted a starry stage, nothing more or less.

Haha, I think I've been able to. No prob!

Good, good. And again, I hope I remained fairly understandable here; I must re-assert that I bare you no ill will in this matter, and wholly respect your feelings on this matter. It's just a lot of fun to have a nice, civil debate on these matters.

[Elisto Dragonwings]

...you're aware there are quite a few people around in the cutscenes of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, and can even talk to them in the Adventure Fields of the first game. But the moment you enter a level? They vanish. You don't have anyone lounging about on Emerald Coast, or see any explores in Windy Vally.

We don't have those cutscenes in the original games, though. We have no reason to believe humans other than Eggman even exist in the original games, except for the Japanese canon's idea that the game is set on Earth. If we choose to retroactively apply the "Adventure" games' human presence as proof of that, meanwhile, I'd say the similarity between SatAM's world and the games' increases significantly, but that's a whole other matter.

I feel I have to point this out as well. If we're talking about the games at the time of SatAM only, Sonic 1 and 2, then, no, I never imagined there being other humans around, or really many anthro-animal characters either. You don't see anyone other than the small animals, which I never considered "characters" as the time. Nothing in the games suggests there were other people out in the open.

Naoto Ohshima, in the 'Sonic Jam' strategy guide wrote:While designing stages, I had the image in mind of something like outer space, or a starry night sky. I was thinking there should be a place where you run through a scenic night-time location. By the time we were done with these last three stages, Labyrinth, Star Light, and Scrap Brain, we had a really good understanding of the system and had become somewhat fanatical about elaborate moving platforms

That description doesn't sound to me like another fortress Eggman built. It sounds like just some random city at night, where its scenic because the people who are there seem to be asleep. Or at least not partying it up in this part of the city.

This doesn't sound like a city where people are asleep to me; just a city at night; maybe there are people there, maybe not. I think it's safe to say not everyone interprets that the same way. And as far as I'm concerned, if that wasn't made clear in the game (or whatever story/image), it's open to interpretation. I guess this is the creator's intent thing you and Gojira were talking about. (For the record, I also don't consider everything Ben wanted to include in SatAM to necessarily be "truth", like him wanting Robotnik to be a space traveler. That wasn't actually included, so it's not really part of SatAM, even if it's what he envisioned). Additionally, though, I would say that more city-type levels do look more clearly Robotnik/Eggman built than not. Chemical Plant, Metropolis, Death Egg, Doomsday, etc., even if some were not intended to be.

The original Japanese continuity never was given a chance in the United States

Didn't Sega want to customize the story to each region? So why then is the Japanese continuity the "original" if each branch did what the thought was the best idea? And What continuity exactly are we talking about if there was virtually no story for Sonic 1 and 2? Other than some differences in names, I don't see much difference.

I think I get what you're saying about "essence" and now that I'm more familiar with anime and Japanese pop culture, I do see the "Japanese-ness" of parts of the games, which is not at all surprising since yes, they were primarily made in Japan, as you pointed out (although I still maintain not entirely). And I do appreciate that about the games as well, especially since I didn't see it as a kid so it's something "new" to enjoy. But the fact that the culture of the creators shows through doesn't necessarily mean anything except that you can't hide that (and why try?). I don't think that that means that everything "legitimate" must also have come from that culture. I mean, they ripped off Star Wars (Death Star) and Blade Runner (supposedly Scrap Brain Zone's music is a midi version of the credits music from Blade Runner), and the ideas of evil robots and nature vs development are certainly not unique to Japan, and if the intent was to "customize" the games for the different regions, then I still don't understand why only the Japanese one is "original", ESPECIALLY if the games were intended for western audiences. Couldn't that even mean just the opposite of what you're saying? That the games themselves were a Japanese attempt and creating something more western-styled, suggesting the American continuity is in fact the "original" and the one intended to go with the games (and since you can't actually separate your culture from your work, it would make sense to leave parts to the people from the culture you're trying to appeal to)? 'm not personally claiming that's what I think they did, but I do think it's worth looking at it from that perspective.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

Good discussion. I don't have time to read all of it, unfortunately, but I do have a question for David:

The fact that SEGA of America went their own way with Sonic was not something the creators were aware of. The three main players have gone on record saying they were shocked that the west had to redraw Sonic. That they had to modify the elements and the storyline they had come up with.

^ Do you have a source on this?


To be honest, I don't think we have much of a disagreement here aside from personal preference. Neither I, Mercury, Gojira, Elisto, or this site in general are out to claim that SatAM is the one true Sonic. Mercury's article and others on here (like this one, this one, this one, and this one) all include the caveat that opinions are bound to vary on this issue, even if you've got all the facts straight (and hopefully we can agree that the facts are straight), if for no other reason than different people are going to place different value on the facts. All we're trying to say is that SatAM (and surrounding works) are no less an official part of the franchise and that the show should be judged on its own merits and not based upon some oft ill-informed and nonsensical blather over what is and isn't canon. No more, no less.

Anyway, welcome to the forum, David. Intelligent debate is always welcome

[John Roberts]

I guess we are quite lucky that we have many different versions of Sonic we can enjoy for our own personal tastes. Slapstick Sonic, mature Sonic, popcorn-fun Sonic, weird-arse singing Sonic, cricket Sonic (the hell?)... It's only when one side of the fandom try to claim their version is the end all 'canon' to the franchise that things tend to get a tad messy. Really, it shouldn't matter, right? Hold on to what you like and don't go flaming bonkers when the fandom next door enjoy something altogether different.

[David The Lurker]

Good discussion. I don't have time to read all of it, unfortunately, but I do have a question for David:

The fact that SEGA of America went their own way with Sonic was not something the creators were aware of. The three main players have gone on record saying they were shocked that the west had to redraw Sonic. That they had to modify the elements and the storyline they had come up with.

^ Do you have a source on this?

In fact I do! A couple years back, Gametap released this amazing four part documentary on YouTube. The first part can be watched here, but they make it quite clear in their interviews they were not happy with what the west did with Sonic.

To be honest, I don't think we have much of a disagreement here aside from personal preference. Neither I, Mercury, Gojira, Elisto, or this site in general are out to claim that SatAM is the one true Sonic. Mercury's article and others on here (like this one, this one, this one, and this one) all include the caveat that opinions are bound to vary on this issue, even if you've got all the facts straight (and hopefully we can agree that the facts are straight), if for no other reason than different people are going to place different value on the facts. All we're trying to say is that SatAM (and surrounding works) are no less an official part of the franchise and that the show should be judged on its own merits and not based upon some oft ill-informed and nonsensical blather over what is and isn't canon. No more, no less.

Anyway, welcome to the forum, David. Intelligent debate is always welcome

Oh man, should I juice and jam? I feel like I should.

I feel I have to point this out as well. If we're talking about the games at the time of SatAM only, Sonic 1 and 2, then, no, I never imagined there being other humans around, or really many anthro-animal characters either. You don't see anyone other than the small animals, which I never considered "characters" as the time. Nothing in the games suggests there were other people out in the open.

This doesn't sound like a city where people are asleep to me; just a city at night; maybe there are people there, maybe not. I think it's safe to say not everyone interprets that the same way. And as far as I'm concerned, if that wasn't made clear in the game (or whatever story/image), it's open to interpretation. I guess this is the creator's intent thing you and Gojira were talking about. (For the record, I also don't consider everything Ben wanted to include in SatAM to necessarily be "truth", like him wanting Robotnik to be a space traveler. That wasn't actually included, so it's not really part of SatAM, even if it's what he envisioned). Additionally, though, I would say that more city-type levels do look more clearly Robotnik/Eggman built than not. Chemical Plant, Metropolis, Death Egg, Doomsday, etc., even if some were not intended to be.

These kinda tie into each other. Yes, you don't see anyone else. But to think that Sonic and Eggman are the only two living beings just seems...odd? I think it's better to imagine that the only reason you see Sonic and Eggman is because they're the only ones important to the game that you're playing. Honestly, if there were a bunch of humans/animals just running around in the background, or sticking their heads out windows, or anything like that, it would be incredibly distracting and take away from the game. And the levels you cited...yes, those look Eggman had a hand in them. But those zones are clearly places he has a hand in. Metropolis is his Scrap Brain of Sonic 2, Death Egg is his flying fortress, Chemical Plant...well, he certainly did something to it because of all that muck everywhere...but not every city level has to be connected to him. What about Casino Night? Or the two from Sonic 1, Star Light and Spring Yard? They don't have the tell tale signs of Eggman influence.

Didn't Sega want to customize the story to each region? So why then is the Japanese continuity the "original" if each branch did what the thought was the best idea? And What continuity exactly are we talking about if there was virtually no story for Sonic 1 and 2? Other than some differences in names, I don't see much difference.

I think I get what you're saying about "essence" and now that I'm more familiar with anime and Japanese pop culture, I do see the "Japanese-ness" of parts of the games, which is not at all surprising since yes, they were primarily made in Japan, as you pointed out (although I still maintain not entirely). And I do appreciate that about the games as well, especially since I didn't see it as a kid so it's something "new" to enjoy. But the fact that the culture of the creators shows through doesn't necessarily mean anything except that you can't hide that (and why try?). I don't think that that means that everything "legitimate" must also have come from that culture. I mean, they ripped off Star Wars (Death Star) and Blade Runner (supposedly Scrap Brain Zone's music is a midi version of the credits music from Blade Runner), and the ideas of evil robots and nature vs development are certainly not unique to Japan, and if the intent was to "customize" the games for the different regions, then I still don't understand why only the Japanese one is "original", ESPECIALLY if the games were intended for western audiences. Couldn't that even mean just the opposite of what you're saying? That the games themselves were a Japanese attempt and creating something more western-styled, suggesting the American continuity is in fact the "original" and the one intended to go with the games (and since you can't actually separate your culture from your work, it would make sense to leave parts to the people from the culture you're trying to appeal to)? 'm not personally claiming that's what I think they did, but I do think it's worth looking at it from that perspective.

I...my point hasn't been "Japan is superior because it's Japan." My point has been that, because the game was made in Japan, by a Japanese team, that the Japanese storyline is the original version of the storyline, and the one the rest of the series has tried to be a part of (even though the newer games have more than missed the point). Trying to look at the perspective that the American continuity is the "original" doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because it wasn't. Even if the the character of Sonic was designed for a western audience, and even though the game was released in the United States a month before it was released in Japan, that does not make the Kintobor-driven storyline the "original" version of Sonic. Just like SatAM is not the original. The original is what I have linked before, being the first game, the materials that the team created, and what they had a hand in when it came to advertising.

...and...Spinball wasn't made by a Japanese team. But it's a spinoff, not a main title. Of the five core titles in the series, only Sonic 2 had any substantial contribution by a western staff, and I've already explained that they were not really in charge of it, and most of their work was modified in some way. Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R were done by Travellers' Tales in Europe, but now we're talking more spinoffs, and those were supervised by Sonic Team as well (who had migrated back to Japan to work on Nights Into Dreams among other titles).

And there is quite a bit of difference aside from "a few names" when it comes to the storyline of one and two. Take one look at the Japanese manga (here) and then look at the American counterpart (here). There are significant differences. And SEGA never intended Sonic to be "localized" by each branch. It was something SEGA of America ultimately did on their own. You can blame SEGA of Japan for not being more concerned with their western branch, but they didn't say "oh, we're making this game. Can you make sure you completely change the story we made for it? Thanks." They probably just said "Hey, can you make sure to sell this game and make us some money? Just don't try and show us up because if you do we'll turn you in a branch that only deals with digital distribution in two decades." Ok, well maybe they didn't say it EXACTLY like that...

Says who? Look at, say, "Blade Runner". Not only is the book it's based on, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", a radically different beast in tone and plot, but director Ridley Scott has been up front for years about the fact that he intended for the film's main character, Rick Deckard, to be in fact a Replicant android, just like the ones he hunts throughout the film; the final revelation is removed, but enough hints on the matter remain that one could accept that fact as canonical to the story if they so chose. But you know what? As far as I'm concerned, in the "Blade Runner" that made its way to theaters, Deckard is human. In my opinion, the story is just so much better if Deckard is human. So while I respect Scott's idea for Deckard's character, I far prefer the interpretation I have now, even knowing what was originally intended. I suppose that may well count as using my knowledge of Scott's intention to "some capacity", but it's a minor one, and more importantly it's in a capacity wherein the creator's intent is in no way binding to my own opinion and understanding of the story.

Well...Blade Runner is a tricky thing. But I feel like that might be slightly different, because aren't there people who worked on the movie that argue that they thought Deckard was human too? That there really wasn't a concensus with the actors/producer/director/writer/etc? I was under that impression, though I could be wrong because I've never gotten too deep into the behind-the-scenes of that film. But, while I think it is fair to make your own conclusions with a work that is in front of you, you shouldn't just blindly ignore what the author was trying to put across. And in the case of Blade Runner, I'd say that you're not. You are aware of what the director wanted to do, and the fact that he had an idea that didn't end up in the final film just leaves things ambiguous, which is fine by me.

I remain a touch unconvinced that the SatAM world is all that different from the Game World, especially if we're taking the "Sonic Adventure"-and-beyond games into account as you do later on. They're not exactly the same, but I don't think they're wholly incompatible, either.

I maintain that SatAM is quite different from the classics. But, if you were to compare it to...say, Shadow the Hedgehog? It would be hard for me to argue against that. But I do have problems with how the franchise is handled these days, not only because of art style but because they just aren't that fun to play. To be fair, I haven't tried out Colors yet. But Sonic 4? Um...that's something best left for another topic altogether.

I fail to see why it's such a humongous change that the robots Sonic fights and the robots which hold his friends are two different things now; he's still bashing 'bots, his friends are still being held prisoner in robot shells. Both essential elements have been retained, it's just the manner in which they've been handled that's changed.

Well...in the games, being freed is really a simple fix. Sonic takes a second to smack into the robot, and the animal inside hops away as if nothing happened. In the show? They undergo a horrific process that changes their very flesh into metal, and even if they can reclaim their free will, they are still trapped in this shell, with no clear way of reversing the transformation. That is taking one idea, and going to the exact opposite of the spectrum.

We don't have those cutscenes in the original games, though. We have no reason to believe humans other than Eggman even exist in the original games, except for the Japanese canon's idea that the game is set on Earth. If we choose to retroactively apply the "Adventure" games' human presence as proof of that, meanwhile, I'd say the similarity between SatAM's world and the games' increases significantly, but that's a whole other matter.

We didn't have those cutscenes because we didn't really need those cutscenes back during the classic era. And Sonic Adventure...to me, doesn't give off any particular SatAM vibe. There's a city, but Eggman doesn't control it. It looks like New York, or maybe L.A. Eggman is still basically operating the same way he did in the first games, he just tries to also use the power of Chaos to his disposal, and it all kinda gets out of his hands. Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006...I can see how those can be used to point out similarities to the SatAM universe, but the last two are generally not considered good games (and the last one is ignored by just about everyone), and Sonic Adventure 2 had an identity problem anyway.

Well, again, what Oshima intended does not necessarily bare on what I experience when playing the game, but even setting that aside, I actually don't see anything in that statement which rules out much of anything. He's just saying he wanted a starry stage, nothing more or less.

To be fair, there is another starry stage located in Sonic CD. Stardust Speedway. But that one does have a giant Eggman statue smack dab in the middle. So I think it's easier to argue the CD one was made by Eggman, while the one in Sonic 1 is more...generic and possibly has been there for quite a while.

Good, good. And again, I hope I remained fairly understandable here; I must re-assert that I bare you no ill will in this matter, and wholly respect your feelings on this matter. It's just a lot of fun to have a nice, civil debate on these matters.

As long as we don't meet in person and decide to strangle each other. Might not be as civil then ^_^

[Gojira007]

Well...Blade Runner is a tricky thing. But I feel like that might be slightly different, because aren't there people who worked on the movie that argue that they thought Deckard was human too? That there really wasn't a concensus with the actors/producer/director/writer/etc? I was under that impression, though I could be wrong because I've never gotten too deep into the behind-the-scenes of that film.

If such a lack of consensus exists, I don't know of it; what I DO know is that, prior to the studio's cut of the film, scenes existed which confirmed Deckard's status far more definitively than in the version originally released to theaters; if there WAS a lack of consensus on whether or not Deckard was a Replicant, it did not exist at the script or directorial level, so it's hard to argue the idea was NOT part of the original creative intent of the film.

But, while I think it is fair to make your own conclusions with a work that is in front of you, you shouldn't just blindly ignore what the author was trying to put across.

Except that trying to put something across and successfully putting something across are not the same thing. That is the heart of what I've been trying to argue all along; even knowing what the creator intended to do with their work, if I see things differently than they do in my own view of the work itself, that's the version I stick with in my appreciation of it. Sometimes I see things exactly the same way as the creator did, after all, but when I don't, I don't think it's "blind ignorance" to stick to my own interpretation, because that's what makes Art the living, breathing thing I feel it to be. That's why I feel the SatAM universe is a valid interpreation of the Sonic the Hedgehog mythos, regardless of what the creative process of its birth by Mr. Hurst and co. were: because I can look at its world, compare it to the games, and see the parallels between them.

I maintain that SatAM is quite different from the classics.

That's your right, but I have to wonder if it's really that hard for you to see why others might feel differently.

But, if you were to compare it to...say, Shadow the Hedgehog? It would be hard for me to argue against that.

You don't even need to go that late in the series, though. As early as "Sonic and Knuckles" (or "Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and Knuckles", depending on how you count), you can see the first in-game hints at the sort of mythological history that was all over the place in SatAM (moreso Season 1 than 2, but even there it applies), which was all the more followed up on in "Sonic Adventure". "Sonic Adventure 2", meanwhile, brings in the sort of dark science-fiction angle that SatAM was quite up front about. Heck, even "Sonic Heroes", which was clearly going for a more retro vibe for the most part, has the Final Fortress Stage, which looks damned near exactly like Robotropolis.

But I do have problems with how the franchise is handled these days, not only because of art style but because they just aren't that fun to play.

Me too, for what it's worth. ^_^ "Sonic Colors" is a HUGE step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned, but we've still got a ways to go after "Final Fantasy Sonic"...er, I mean "Sonic the Hedgehog 2006". lD;

I fail to see why it's such a humongous change that the robots Sonic fights and the robots which hold his friends are two different things now; he's still bashing 'bots, his friends are still being held prisoner in robot shells. Both essential elements have been retained, it's just the manner in which they've been handled that's changed.

That is taking one idea, and going to the exact opposite of the spectrum.

Is that really such an awful thing, though? To look at an idea, see an implication to said idea the original version did not consider but which you personally find compelling as a story element? I personally don't think so; the idea remains the same, it's simply the direction you take it in that's changed.

We didn't have those cutscenes because we didn't really need those cutscenes back during the classic era.

And without those cutscenes, the audience of the original games are left with no particular reason to believe that humans other than Eggman exist in the game's world.

As long as we don't meet in person and decide to strangle each other. Might not be as civil then ^_^

I certainly hope that wouldn't be our first reaction upon meeting each other in real life. o_O;

[Elisto Dragonwings]

Oh, I'd been looking for that manga! Thanks!

And I didn't mean to say I thought you were saying the Japanese version is better because it's Japanese. Sorry if it came across that way, because that's not what I thought you were saying.

I don't know the exact timeline for creation/release of the different versions; if the story for the Japanese version was decided on first and then the western versions changed it, or if they just both kind of came about at the same time.

Since you mentioned SA1, I have to admit, it was clear to me that this was a continuation of the original games based on a different interpretation of Sonic than I was used to. And I liked it; I still do. But it also was jarring to me that they chose to go that route and stick to the Japanese continuity when it didn't seem like many fans were familiar with it. Of course, once a more complex plot was added, it was probably impossible to have multiple regional interpretations, not that I thought they wanted to do that for SA1 anyway, despite Sonic Underground coming out at the same time.

And to me it seemed like it was at that point that there was an awareness of a divide between SoA and SoJ. Very likely could have been my perception of things since I wasn't really involved with the fan community yet, but before that, it was just "Sega" among fans I knew, or maybe Sonic Team and STI for people who payed more attention to the technical side of production, and after that it was SoJ and SoA, as if they were two different companies.

So I think we're talking about multiple levels of creation and who to credit. At the time of the early games, and really, even still, it's one company, Sega, and I guess I just consider all of what they do equally legitimate and "original", even if the ideas of different parties involved sometimes/often conflicted or didn't occur simultaneously. It seems to me that you look at the level of the individual people who created Sonic and attribute "original" to them. If that's what you're saying, I'd certainly agree that the people deserve the creative credit more than the company as a whole. I just also think that if something is being created for something larger, then what that larger entity/other parts of it has to say is also should be included in what is original (even though I don't actually like the implications of that - ie: what's happening between Sega, Archie, and Ken Penders over who the characters belong. Penders and the other writers/artist put the work and creativity into it, but since they did it for something larger, they as individuals can't take all the credit for it, even though it seems fair that they should). But that's just my view of things. I'm sure there are a lot more views on how to define "original".

Edit: OK, well I'm reading the manga and except for the concert with the human girl dressed as Sonic, it actually reminded me more of SatAM then the other promo comic. I do think it's interesting though, that it says that promo was the official western story until 98 because outside of StC, it looks like it wasn't accepted by any other Sonic continuity.

Edit 2: OK, read more...um wow this is bizarre. I'd read some of it a long time ago, but I didn't realize there was so much...strangeness...And actually, except for that first story, it's not even close to what I imagined for the Japanese continuity. Glad SA1 didn't go with this.....

Edit 3: OK, seriously, I need to know, is this where AoStH came from? There are even robots that look like some of the background ones in here!

Edit 4: started a discussion of the manga in General Sonic Talk