Archie Sally Gets a Redesign [Spoiler]

[Nattala]

I don't really see changing Sally's designs as attempts to remove SatAM from the book. If they wanted to do that they would just remove Sally entirely.

And killing Robotnik wasn't an attempt to get rid of SatAM either. It was an attempt to give closure to the book because they didn't think they were going to last much longer once SatAM was canceled and the games stopped coming out so regularly. Then they did last so they had to bring the main villain back somehow and they already wiped the last one out of existence so they brought in his dimensional counterpart which also explained the design change they had to do. They did bring original Robotnik back for one story but he was erased again.

Still they're not reluctant to use the SatAM Robotnik design like in the backstory for 234 so they're clearly not trying to get rid of SatAM. The only time you can maybe claim that is in the destruction of Knothole and I don't think that was to get rid of SatAM roots but rather that Eggman knew where they were and it would make sense to attack them like he did. I mean people have wondered why Robotnik didn't just burn down the Great Forest in SatAM so to see Knothole obliterated like that was heartbreaking but it made sense as something SatAM or conic Robotnik would do.

[Elisto Dragonwings]

I have to agree, I don't think they're trying to "get rid" of SatAM from the comics; the comics AREN'T SatAM (and that's in some way what I used to like about them) and haven't really been like it in a long time. But the characters aren't just SatAM characters, they're Archie characters too. Saying they're "old and niche" as Ian said seems to miss the point that he and all the other writers have been writing them for years and they're still a significant part of the comics. So I really don't get why he said that, except to dismiss the old fans, not the characters themselves.

Also, why do we have 2 threads on this now? I'll see if merging this one and the one in "News" is feasible.

One additional thing he says: "These characters have survived solely thanks to the Archie books"
He is partly right. But I am sure they would survive without Archie, too. There are still too many people who know the show and too many of them are doing art based on SatAM. Seems like Flynn thinks Archie has every right to do whatever with SatAM what they want, because they are SatAM's saviour

I actually wouldn't mind if that is his sentiment, I just don't think he (and previous writers and artist) are doing a very good job of maintaining the integrity of who the characters are, and I say that even acknowledging the differences between their SatAM and Archie versions. I realize that may just be me though.

Edit 2: OK, merged the posts; sorry for any confusion/accidental double posts this caused in the conversation.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

I created a new post because the existing thread wasn't really formatted/suited for a "News" post. News posts automatically go to Twitter, Facebook, RSS and the homepage, so it's good if the title and first post fully explain what's going on. I should have included a link to this thread in that one, though. Oh well, what's done is done.

[Elisto Dragonwings]

Ah, sorry, I had no idea. I think I can split the topics back to two if you want.

[bwrosas]

I feel the reason we are talking about it so much, is because WE grew up with the "Open Vest" look for near 19 years, and it's basically a bit a shock for us to see that all change.

In fact I remember many years ago, The team owners tried to get the fans to like a new logo for the 49ers, with the the SF gone from the helmet and replaced with just the 49ers logo on the side. They left up to a vote and fans turn the new design down with a majority hating it and some liking it. (Strange example, I know)

Now true, we've all given our mixed feelings about it, but the reason for that is for the reason or at least one of two them being the soccer parents groups and possibly SEGA's mandates for the change and other possible changes in the future.

Now I've said this before and I'll say it again, it's all going to depend on the reaction when the offically Final Design debuts within next year. Because right if the reaction contunies to be mixed, I can see them doing to Sally, what they at times do with Bunnie, and that's have her go back and forth between the new and the orginal, just like when they have Bunnie go from wearing her Cowgirl outfit and back to just her pink leotard outfit. That's what I feel May happen if the reaction to Sally's new design contunies to be mixed going into next year and up to it's offically debut.

[tails]

I feel the reason we are talking about it so much, is because WE grew up with the "Open Vest" look for near 19 years, and it's basically a bit a shock for us to see that all change.

In fact I remember many years ago, The team owners tried to get the fans to like a new logo for the 49ers, with the the SF gone from the helmet and replaced with just the 49ers logo on the side. They left up to a vote and fans turn the new design down with a majority hating it and some liking it. (Strange example, I know)

Now true, we've all given our mixed feelings about it, but the reason for that is for the reason or at least one of two

them being the soccer parents groups and possibly SEGA's mandates for the change and other possible changes in the future.

Now I've said this before and I'll say it again, it's all going to depend on the reaction when the offically Final Design debuts within next year. Because right if the reaction contunies to be mixed, I can see them doing to Sally, what they at times do with Bunnie, and that's have her go back and forth between the new and the orginal, just like when they have Bunnie go from wearing her Cowgirl outfit and back to just her pink leotard outfit. That's what I feel May happen if the reaction to Sally's new design contunies to be mixed going into next year and up to it's offically debut.

Well ya Marvel Comics did the same thing with Spider Man first he had his red and blue suit then finished switch into the black Spiderman costumes then there was an issue where that was taken away but then the fans like it so they brought it bacck

But next time he was black cat who made the black suit look like and sometimes it wasn't clear completely leader was his other one so for some times he wood have a black top and the blue pants or vice a versa or Speidi costume or complete black costume.....

It's in a YouTube documentary

[PorpoiseMuffins]

More from Ian: http://ianpotto.deviantart.com/journal/ ... -333572974

Right, so, there's been a lot of talk and discussion on Sally's redesign. Some of it has been good: folks understanding the situation, the thinking behind it, and the over-all nature of the book. There's also been some bad: LOTS of rumors growing out of control, and a lot of what I've said being misinterpreted. And some of that is, ultimately, my fault. I can't talk about a lot of what's going on behind the scenes or what our long-term plans are, and so my vagueness is causing confusion. So here's some added info that will have to be taken at face value, and then I've got to drop the topic. I don't want to make a mess of things.

Sally's now going to be younger/immature/too happy/too different/not enough different
Once again - this is rough concept art meant as a teaser. It is not meant to unify the entirety of her subplot into a single image. When we revealed the original Mecha Sally design last year, did it betray her redesign, weaponization, and entire subplot? Of course not. I can see where folks spinning out their theories, but it's mostly conjecture. These "facts" are all fan-theory at this point.

Yeah, well, the reveal ruined the surprise!
I'd say "yeah, well, you're the one who looked" but this is the internet. Dodging bullets is easier than dodging spoilers. But, again, when we did the teaser reveal of Mecha Sally, did that spoil the entirety of her subplot? I'd think not, given it's still going on. Does this one teaser say when, how, and at what cost she'll change back? Nope. And c'mon - who seriously thought she wouldn't change back? The alternatives would be to keep her a robot (which would wear out the novelty) or kill her. Look at the explosive reactions to her getting a design change. I think the internet would explode if we'd killed her.

Is this set in stone? For sure? I want to rejoice/lament/bomb your house
I honestly don't know. I like it just fine, but there's been a LOT of scrutiny, and I think some folks have made some good and/or interesting points. And I'm not the only one who listens to fan-input. So maybe it will be tweaked. Or maybe this is the final design. You'll have to wait and see.

Are the new clothes coming from parental complaints over Sally's nakedness?
For pity's sake no! Yes, there are people out there who would object, but they are of the smallest minority (and need a new hobby). People getting hot and bothered about "nude" cartoon animals (both for and against) are the furthest thing from my mind. These aren't fully realize anthropomorphic entities, they're colorful cartoons with passing likenesses to human anatomy. For the love all things sensible, would somebody think it racy if I put a couple of parentheses next to each other? ( ( - woo! Scandalous!

Is there a level of hypocrisy in how nudity is treated between male and female cartoon characters? Sure. Is it unique to SONIC? Not by a long shot. Folks can debate all they want about the morality or political repercussions, but on our end it's very simple: SONIC-females are fully clothed, ergo Sally now wears clothes.

[Gojira007]

Well that certainly addresses most of what I complained about in his previous response. I'm sure it won't do anything to sate most of the fans currently unhappy, and I'm sensing a little bit of bet-hedging (the "this may not necessarily be the final look" thing in particular), but for the most part it answers a lot of the weaker spots I felt were in his previous response.
There's still a somewhat cynical bent to his reasoning to me, though; he acknowledges up front that, despite all the gravity the book tried to place on it, there was basically no chance of the Mecha Sally story-arc panning out any other way than this, which bugs the crap out of me for a LOT of reasons, not the least of which being the idea that the sole thing he apparently valued about the story-arc was its "novelty". Likewise, his admission that the double-standard of clothing exists but who honestly cares rubs me the wrong way.
Still, at least he KNOWS about it, and isn't trying to actively defend it, is a sight above just sort of pretending not to know it exists. Likewise, I do think there's a slightly greater sympathy in this response to fan feelings, most notably his mentioning that fans ARE being listened to based on how they received the design

[tross]

I'm not too thrilled about him referring to the SatAM cast as "old, outdated niche characters". I think I know what he's getting at, but he could have phrased things differently. Besides, they're only niche characters because they only exist in two Sonic cannons. Well, that, and they haven't exactly had much character development, or much going on that would gather much interest from newer fans who have a different way of viewing things than SatAM/longtime Archie Sonic fans. I blame the writers in the past decade(not just Mr. Flynn) for that though. I can appreciate the idea of updating the characters to keep them "current", but I would hope that some shreds of the characters we grew up with will remain, even after such a transformation. Even if the characters remain, will they still be recognizable? I'd rather they not become too Sega-Sonic like. Can Ian Flynn pull off such a major character overhaul effectively? I suppose if not him, someone else would take a stab at it, at some point in time. I do at least, believe him when he says that he intends to keep the SatAM cast around, and that at least counts for something in my book.

I have to give Mr. Flynn the benefit of the doubt here, and see what he does going forward. He did say that Sally's redesign isn't set in stone, and that her new look can be tweaked. I imagine there will be some changes to her proposed design before it is actually implemented. Archie does seem to be open to criticism on the subject, so that's a good thing.

[Elisto Dragonwings]

Yay, double standards and sexism are OK because everyone else is doing it! Does he even hear how stupid that sounds? Besides, as I've said in other threads, Sally's not exactly the only female character who's not fully clothed, and there are a lot more female Archie characters than Sega ones, so why must the comics conform to that instead of keeping the mix of clothing styles? Is Sega demanding it and Ian just covering for them, or are the people at Archie forgetting that they are their own universe separate from the games?

[zelchias]

Wanna bet that soon enough EVERY female character that goes trouserless in this comic will be donning the bike shorts?

[tross]

If that's the case, I'd rather see some skirts in the mix too, to shake things up a bit(they are female afterall). In all due seriousness though, that does make me question whether this is all just a Sega mandate thing. I hope not, because Sega has irritated me enough as it is with all their mandates up until this point. I'd rather they not "Segafy" the entire cast just for the sake of pushing some agenda of theirs.

Besides, the non-Sega characters aren't Sega characters, and I don't think they should be treated exactly the same. Sure, I think some degree of equal treatment would be great, but there are aspects of the characters that make them distinctly Archie/SatAM, and I hope that they retain those aspects. That's part of the reason I was critical of aspects of Sally's proposed redesign. She looks a little too Sega-Sonic like for my taste, and I'm afraid that it will run deeper than a simple appearance change. If the characters continue to exist, but none of their original traits will be present, then they will pretty much continue on in name and appearance only, which would be almost as bad as removing them in my book. Now, if Mr. Flynn could find some balance, and develop the characters, and make them them more appealing to newer fans, while still maintaining their appeal to longtime fans, then I'm all for this redesign.

Oh, for the record, I think the double standard with female characters and clothing is sexist, and pointless, and that's one thing I don't agree with Sega on.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

Besides, the non-Sega characters aren't Sega characters, and I don't think they should be treated exactly the same. Sure, I think some degree of equal treatment would be great, but there are aspects of the characters that make them distinctly Archie/SatAM, and I hope that they retain those aspects. That's part of the reason I was critical of aspects of Sally's proposed redesign. She looks a little too Sega-Sonic like for my taste, and I'm afraid that it will run deeper than a simple appearance change. If the characters continue to exist, but none of their original traits will be present, then they will pretty much continue on in name and appearance only, which would be almost as bad as removing them in my book. Now, if Mr. Flynn could find some balance, and develop the characters, and make them them more appealing to newer fans, while still maintaining their appeal to longtime fans, then I'm all for this redesign.

This is somewhat my problem with the redesign, though granted it hardly started with this one, Sally was always deformed by Archie artists, Spaz and Axer made her humanoid while Yardley and Bates made her a transexual Tails. Most of my beef with the designs isn't even the attire, but how her actual body proportions are altered. The previous designs actually kept consistant clothing, but it didn't make her look anymore authentic. I get stuff like the larger limbs and hands/feet to befit the SEGA style is kind of neccessary, but too many distinctive aspects of her original design are being traded off to make her look like a generic Uekawa character. This design in particular makes her look more like Marine's twin sister. I made an experiment and I feel with a more authentic Sal, the actual pants and attire don't look that offputting *WARNING: Shameless self promoting art upcoming*:

[Elisto Dragonwings]

Psi, I find it interesting that everything you described from previous artist I consider 100% artist's style, and not at all a redesign. To me, a character's design refers to their clothes, colors, relative body size, and features, but not at all how realistic, detailed, or cartoony they are; to me that is entirely dependent on the artist's style, not what traits the character has. Things like eye shape, number of fingers, and perhaps the size of certain features like ears, hands, and tails, are kind of in the middle of artist style and character feature. So for example, I think Dave Manak's work was horrendous, but I don't think he drew any of the characters "wrong," I just don't find his style appealing. Conversely, I would argue Rotor and Antoine's designs in Season 2 were "wrong," not stylistic changes, even if I like the overall animation style.

[bwrosas]

For the past week, the overall fan base has been split down the middle about Sally's new redesign/rough concept draft redesign that was unveiled a little over a week ago at the New York comic con.

Many fans have expressed their like and dislike for the new design. 50% feel that it's about time she had a change. While the other 50% feels that the change/redesign is unnecessary and betrays who the character is.

50% of the fans are in agreement with Ian Flynn, when he said that the characters need to mesh with the current look of the Sonic franchise. The other 50% feels that the reason the redesign occurred is because of two reasons, one being the "soccer parents" (which Ian has denied had no influence in the decision for the change) and/or the Sega Corporation and their mandates.

However, despite the differences in the overall fan base, one question does seem to be asked from both sides. A question that makes a possible majority of the fan base wonder one thing. And that one thing is : Is/was this current Sonic story arc nothing more then an excuse to finally get Sally fully clothed?

The reason the fan base (at least the majority of it) asked this question, is because they want to know if this is what this entire story arc has been leading up to. They want to know that if the nearly a year and the current/October issues of both the main Sonic comic and the spinoff Sonic Universe comic, which for this month are looked at as nothing more then promotional advertisements/tie-ins for the Summer Olympic Games which already took place this past late July/early to mid August, as well as for the Mario and Sonic London Olympics videogame tie-in as well as the upcoming Sonic and Sega All-Stars Transformed racing game which is due out next month, that if their interruptions of this story arc with the exception of the back story for issue 242 of the main comic as well as the upcoming summer crossover which will be spread across the Sonic Universe comic, the main Sonic comic, and the Mega-Man comic, they want to know that with all that if the redesign is the reason for this long drawnout story arc.

Believe it or not, many fans believe that to be the case. And the reason being, is because some of them feel that if Ian, Archie and Sega wanted to give Sally a redesign, they could've easily done it in a short back story or a short front story in the main comic. As one fan said and I will use this as an example, Ian could have easily wrote a short story where Sally went with either Amy or Bunnie to go shop for clothes, have either girl tease Sally about her wearing the same outfit and being a Tomboy, show her said outfit that was revealed at the New York comic con, have it either one of them say she would never think about wearing something like this, only to have Sally prove them wrong by purchasing and wearing said outfit and deciding that maybe this is a good look for her to go with from now on. Now that's not exactly how this one fan put it, but if they read this, they will understand that it was close enough.

The point that the fan base that questions if this story arc was nothing more than an excuse to give Sally a new look, the point their trying to make and get a cross to others out there, is that this whole story arc could have been done, but not at the expense of doing what Ian did to Sally just to give her a redesign at the end.

Now my personal feelings on this, is if that is the case, then I do agree that it could have been done with a short story. However I am willing to give Ian the benefit of the doubt and as he said in the additions that he added to his DA Journal, I am going to take what he says for right now at face value. Because in all honesty, why go through all this, with the possibility that the upcoming summer crossover may have something to do with the story arc, due to the fact that the rumor going around is that it will/may involve the missing blue chaos emerald, why go through all that just to have the climax being Sally getting a redesign. To me it doesn't make sense.
The reason being that it doesn't make sense, is that one of the things he added when he made some additions to his DA Journal, he said that the redesign when it's finalized after a possible tweak here and there in the design, does it say how, when and at "what cost" Sally will be restored at. No it doesn't. And what caught my eye, was the at "what cost"part. Which got me thinking what if, what if he takes a page out of let's say the third and final season of Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, the page I'm talking about is when they did the Alien Ranger story arc and had the Power Rangers themselves reduced/deaged to kids, but with their teenage personalities and memories intact. It got me wondering, if perhaps the "what cost" of Sally's return, that perhaps it could be that thanks to possibly the power of the chaos emeralds, if not the blue chaos Emerald that time reverses, with the exception that Sonic and his friends along with Sally regain their teenage personalities and memories, thus explaining perhaps the redesign for Sally and maybe some other characters.

You may read that, and say that's far-fetched even for Ian Flynn, but you got of think of it this way, this story arc is supposed to be Ian Flynn's masterpiece, the story arc that defines his time writing for Archie comics, so I wouldn't put it past Ian to do something of that sort or magnitude, nor should you.

As far as who is to blame for the decision for the redesign of Sally and possibly other characters in the comics, as mentioned before, Ian Flynn pretty much debunked the whole soccer parents theory, even though there are some that still feel they had a role in it, and that Ian is covering his tracks and their's, by saying they didn't have any involvement. Which if true leads to the second option.
That being of course, the Sega Corporation. And why Sega? Because at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, they do have the final say or at least one of the final says when it comes to the comic and the characters involved, whether those characters are game characters on nongame characters, they will at least have some of the final say in what takes place. And if they are the ones truly responsible for the change in Sally's design as well as possibly other future characters, then there is very little we can say about it.
Now don't get me wrong, apparently from what Ian said, Archie comics does at least listen to fan input and criticism, and from what he said recently in the additions to his journal, let's just say that rough concept teaser of Sally's new redesign, may or may not be the final draft/concept design for her going into 2013. Which means they may add some additional details to her final design.

When it comes to this current story arc, from the summaries and video reviews and typed reviews I have read and seen, I can say this. Some like to say, that Ian Flynn is trying to make this current story arc into another version of his web comic Other – M. Which if was/is the case, from what some have described seeing as this story arc has progressed, perhaps may have a point. But giving Ian Flynn the benefit of the doubt, what I see in my honest opinion, is someone that had to get an epic story off their chest. And in my honest opinion, perhaps he wanted to do something in the style of his web comic, which he did kind of achieve with the Silver story arc. But wanted to do more so in the main comic. Thus is the reason for the "Mecha-Sally/World Tour II/Death Egg MK II" story arc that is currently being released, written and by fans standards read and criticized/enjoyed, because Ian, (in my humble opinion) had to get an/this epic story off his chest, out of his mind, checked off his list and by the start and in the middle of next year, hopefully done and over with.
That, my fellow Sonic fans, in my humble/honest opinion is the reason why this story arc was started and is currently going today, because I feel, giving him the benefit of the doubt, he just had to get this story arc out of the way, whether we like it or not.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, I know it was long, but hey would you rather read this or watch a 22 min. plus video on YouTube where I talked about the same thing, I think the choice is easy to make, don't you?

God Bless
Tuesday, October 23, 2012
time : 12:18 PM Pacific.