Mobius The Animated Series

[verafx]

Hey all, my name is John Rivera I'm a freelance 3D animator. I have previously worked on the Sonic Fan Film and MMPR. I'm working on a remake of Satam Sonic on my own spare time. I've modeled Sonic, Sally and a motobug so far, please check out my works in progress.
http://www.facebook.com/mobiustheanimatedseries
Thanks!

[Neon Black]

Those Sonic and Sally meshes are looking pretty spiffy! Definitely a different mood to the SatAM style, Sonic in particular, but all the same, very cool. Have you got anything in mind for what the short's going to be about, universe, characters etc?

[verafx]

Definitely, its going to be about Mobius which is separate by light years from earth. Robotnik comes to steal their power source (the Emeralds) and practically takes over the planet looking for them. Freedom fighters are fighting back using gorilla warfare. How does a hand full of warriors stop an empire? That question is my most interesting aspect.

That's the story in a nutshell, but I want it to be much more real and gritty. No fun times, no dates, no relaxing.... they are in a war and they are losing. This is about when Sonic first joined the freedom fighters and what he will do to turn the tides on Robotnik. So with the help of the fans I will sculpt this remake.

[Sonicroc]

This sounds like a cool project! I like this new Sonic design. I think the problem with the design used in the Eddie Lebron short was that it tried to look realistic while keeping his ridiculous proportions, which ended up making him creepy looking. This model just says: "It's realistic." (Well, relatively speaking of course...) And I like the fact that his eyes are no longer connected! I've never really liked the connected eyes...

I like the idea of giving Sonic a new personality. But I think it's important to make sure that he's relatable as a character. For starters, I would personally recommend that you make his pupils and irises circular, and make them bigger, so they look more like human eyes and less Sonic-y. Also, I think it will pay big dividends if you rig his eyes and mouth such that he's capable of subtle facial expressions, instead of always going around with the same angry look on his face.

And of course, it will be important to give him realistic character flaws. Make him feel like a person, not just some guy who runs around and does good. (The latter was more how he struck me in the Eddie Lebron film...)

[verafx]

Thanks, when I worked on the Sonic Fan Film the model was already created and I didn't have that level of creative control.
As for Mobius The Animated Series I may have been too ambitious with the fur and hair. Its giving me so much problems that I'm considering doing without it. I would like your opinion on fur or no fur. Its difficult letting it go since I've worked on it for so long but I know the road ahead would be incredibly long if I continue to use fur. So what do you think about the latest side by side image?
http://www.facebook.com/mobiustheanimatedseries

[Sonicroc]

I'd say definitely scrap the fur. After watching the bonus features on Monsters Inc. and The Incredibles, I know quite well how hard fur and hair can be to deal with.

The thing about fan projects, as I've learned, is that there are no guarantees they will get done. If dropping the fur greatly increases the chances that we'll actually get to see a finished episode, then I in fact beg you to drop it. (Besides, there was something somewhat odd-looking about the fur you were giving him. It looked more like it was made up of thick, plastic strands of hair.)

Besides... there's no fur in Sonic Boom, as far as I can tell, and those models look great to my eyes.

Like I said, I think how you animate Sonic's face will in the end be much more important than something like whether or not he has fur.

[verafx]

Your perception is on point, the fur was actually too thick. Its when I made it more thin and added more strands it then needed to be regroomed, some fur was sticking out in odd directions. So correcting that is when xgen went nuts, possibly because I was directly changing the geometry even though it was subtle. So its a headache.

Thanks for the reply.

[Lynchenberg]

And when your baby gets shot and you get arrested by a cop, you can making it all better with ice cream on the top.

[Neon Black]

And when your baby gets shot and you get arrested by a cop, you can making it all better with ice cream on the top.

Exactly. .....................Wait, what?!

[Sonicroc]

So, I saw this picture on Facebook, and I'm sorry to say but it gave me "Uncanny Valley" shivers:



I've been staring at it trying to figure out what's wrong. I've determined that by far the main thing wrong with it is the eyes. They look dead, and they are staring right into my soul.

It is actually something very simple but very essential: They don't have any shine. Search "Sonic" in Google Images, and you'll notice that every picture of him has that little white shine on the pupil / iris area. I don't know why this is so important, it's very small, but it seems to determine whether or not I find it nightmare-inducing.

To test out my theory, I put little white shines on it in MS Paint, and it helped considerably! I also tried removing the fang while I was at it, and I gotta say, I think I like it better. I mean, fangs are a cool idea, but I think they make his face less relatable or something.



I don't know, does anyone else think the second one looks more appealing? (despite my rushed MS Paint work)


EDIT: After I posted this, I keep noticing faces, whether anime, 3D animated, or live action -- and the eye shine is almost always there. As I understand it, the Uncanny Valley results from our brain's desire to avoid diseases and such. I might hypothesize that, when I look straight into someone's eyes and there's no shine, my subconscious brain takes this as an indication that there is something very unhealthy about this person that is making his or her eyes not shiny; and so it tells me: No! Stay away!

Now that I think about it, when I'm drawing an eye, I've noticed that there's this one moment when all of a sudden it clicks and suddenly I'm looking at a person's eye instead of shapes. I guess this must be what they mean when they say that "the eyes are the window to the soul."

I could go either way with the fangs... But I'm thoroughly convinced that the eye shine is necessary. (Sorry, I've probably made that clear at this point. I tend to be a bit long-winded, lol... )

[verafx]

Yeah this is the older model and a pic I had sitting there. But on the newer one I made the eyes a bit more Lighter. I haven't added the highlight because I'm unsure of how to do it..... well I know how to do it its that I'm not sure which way to go about it.

When you look at segas Sonic designs their Sonic always has a 2D file texture on a sphere instead of an actual corena retna and pupil. So they can put a highlight on that image and no matter which way you point the camera you will see the highlight. Do I want to emulate that?

Another way I could think of is when I make the eyeball point constraint I can light link a specific light to follow wherever sonic looks. Then I can have control over the lights intensity and size.

But I have still a lot to do to the model so I will add a highlight at a later time. It will go hand in hand with rendering which is one of the final stages of design.

The fangs are tucked in the newer model, It would have been hard to make him talk with that in the way.

[Neon Black]

PREFACE: I know nothing about 3D modelling, rigging, animating etc so this is 100% me talking out my ass.

I'd imagine if you attach a light to Sonic's eyeball you'll get a good, controllable effect in normal conditions, but it'd start to look like his eyes are glowing, right?

If you want control for close ups (pupils dilating, etc) but also a consistent look no matter want, could you mask an extra layer to the eye with a texture like this that you could control independently of his irises?



You'd be able to add a bit of specularity to his iris and sclera as well for a bit of reflectiveness in certain lighting situations, but won't mess with the basic look too much.

[Lynchenberg]

If you want, I could do rotations for you to bring into your 3D program and trace. I'd do it for free, I've taken character design and animation classes with Disney professionals at college. I'd probably do them in more of a traditional cartoon style if you don't mind. Example of a rotation I did on commission: http://d.facdn.net/art/sawyerthecat/140 ... tripes.png

[verafx]

Maybe I should explain it better. When making an eye like that it is static no matter what angle and no matter what happens you would maintain that highlight, which is totally unbelievable and may be too cartoony.

I want to experiment with the light source that follows the eye and only effects the eye. It is true it may add too much brightness all parts of the eye. To counter that problem I can adjust the colors or separate the retina from the cornea geometry and have the light only affect the pupil and retina.... in theory.

The reflectivity of the eye is there its just that it needs something to reflect, in a infinitely empty world there is no reflection, at least that's how its calculated. Until I put a background or HDRI image.

I do have a list of the things I need to do to the model and its long and technical. One of those things are the eyes. Its going to take a lot of trial and error by test rendering and adjusting.

One thing I noticed about Sonics eyes is that they are not perfectly aligned with the world they are obtuse a bit, as if they lye are on a slope of a v. I'm wonder if that adds character to Sonic or would it look better uniform, a basic rule of art is to not be too symmetrical which contradicts how we build things in 3D. So usually we break symmetry at the end of a process.

I'm very pleased to get feedback and suggestions on the design, its a good discussion. I wish I could show you the process in real time. Maybe I could model a character and actually record the process.

I'm going on vacation but I want to show you the model that I have so far, it doesn't have any texture on the blue or tan parts yet.
http://www.facebook.com/mobiustheanimatedseries
Gloria your link is dead.

[Sonicroc]

Gloria's link is working fine for me. Here's a shrunken version of the picture. (Cool, btw)



_______________________________

I should have known that you were already planning to add the eye shine. What I would say is, if the more complicated way of doing it becomes too much of a hassle, you can always fall back on the "painted-on" way, since it's never looked cheesy to me.

Looking at your latest model, I think the lack of fur actually helps: Before, the transition from his arms to his furry body made it look kinda like he had ripped sleeves, which was turning me off... Now it looks more Sonic-ey.


As for the shape of the eyes: As you have it, he just sort of looks angry. I think it's important that his eyes' neutral position not look angry, or it will risk negatively affecting how the audience views him.

But I don't think you necessarily need to make his eyes symmetrical. Fox McCloud in Star Fox Adventures also has inwardly-slanted eyes, but they make it work so that he doesn't look angry (except when he is).

In fact, I recommend that you just generically study what they do with Fox's face. They do so much with it throughout the game; it conveys such subtleties, and it single-handedly makes many of the scenes hilarious and memorable.



(Actually, this Fox model was what I was thinking of when I said earlier that you should make your Sonic's face capable of subtle expressions. )

Have a great vacation!!